Forget the Fish. Salt Kills Our Cars! Update: Dec. 24
You knew it was bound to happen and now it has officially gone viral today. People are puling and whining about transportation officials in the region not using salt to melt snow from area roadways, particularly in Seattle.
The Seattle Times ran a story quoting a flunky at the Seattle Department of Transportation saying that the city doesn't use salt to clear the roads because it is "not a healthy addition to Puget Sound". The article has drawn well over 400 angry remarks.
Outrage! Hysteria! Particularly from folks looking for any excuse to skewer the liberals running the show here for not doing a better job at dealing the apocalyptic nature of a few inches of lousy snow.
Conservative columnist Michelle Malkin - who lived here a few years and should know better - graces the region with the award "Enviro-Nitwits of the day".
The Shark at Sound Politics warns "Compromising Public Safety - By Design"
Oh noes! The environmentalists are at it again!
Here's the deal. The Times may or may not have accurately quoted Mr. Alex Wiggins at SDOT. And whether he really thinks salt will pollute Puget Sound, or more accurately, the riparian habitat in the Puget Sound basin is beside the point.
Because the real reason the state, and local municipalities, don't salt the roads is that it rots out every car, semi-truck and bus that has a scratch or a ding on its paint-job.
Personally, I can't count the number of times I've heard some out-of-stater say something like, "You guys don't know what you're doing because you don't salt the roads. Back in (insert name of a crap-hole city back east) we salted the roads all the time!"
That's nice. And after five or six years of driving in brine, your car rusts out from the fenders, doors and undercarriage.
As a complete coincidence, I also can't count the number of times out-of-staters tell me "I've never seen so many classic cars in one place. Back home all the cool old Fords and Chevy's are all rusted out."
Gee. Maybe it's because we're smart enough in this state not to salt the roads?
This isn't meant to disparage how other people do their thing elsewhere.
If the Seattle-Metro area routinely received two, three or ten feet of snow a year, then using salt might be a good alternative. But the region doesn't get that much white stuff.
Besides. Driving in the snow isn't that difficult. It is absolutely flabbergasting that people can be given drivers licenses when they don't even know the basics of commuting in inclement weather.
As someone who does grasp the arcane arts of counter-steering and down-shifting, I don't want my car developing cancer of the fender just because people can't commute on hard-pack snow.
If you have a front or four-wheel drive vehicle with anything approaching decent tires, you should be able to ascend every reasonable hill in the region. And if you have a rear-wheel drive vehicle, you should be able to travel on most flat surfaces and streets with a minor grade and have no problem.
Since Snowpocalypse has befallen this region of sinners, I've driven up the Sammamish Plateau three times, climbed West Seattle twice, conquered Capitol Hill, scooted along the streets of Downtown and ascended Phinney Ridge. Hell, I even tried my luck going up the back way of Queen Anne Hill and had no problems.
Admittedly, there was no way I was climbing the hill from Lower Queen Anne. Only a fool tries to go up or down the Counterbalance in this weather.
That's not to say the city should be given a free pass. But if you're going to criticize the City of Seattle, get your facts straight first.
WSDOT has kicked Old Man Winter's ass by keeping all of the major highways in the area bare and dry, just by using sand and liquid de-icer. And the de-icer is far worse for riparian habitat than salt, by-the-way. Yet it works and unlike salt, it doesn't rot out your $30,000 car. Or $500 bike. Or $3,000 scooter. Or $100,000 bus or semi-truck.
Saltless In Seattle: WSDOT has tested a couple pilot projects in Eastern Washington using rock salt and salt brine to melt snow and ice from roadways.
While the cost effectiveness of using salt is an initial advantage, one of the main concerns is its corrosive nature.
During the past two seasons, the WSDOT has been testing the use of salt in its snow and ice program. The Department is using rock salt and salt brine in some areas to evaluate its effectiveness and analyze corrosion. The advantage of salt is its cost and snow melting capabilities. Of course, salt can cause corrosion in some metals.
At least according to WSDOT using salt is just as expensive as non-corrosive de-icer since more salt had to be applied.
During the first two years of testing, results using salt were compared to results using corrosion-inhibited anti-icers. Although the unit cost of salt products is considerably less than the unit cost of corrosion-inhibiting anti-icers, overall costs at the end of a winter season are similar. This is because more salt has to be used, and applied more often, to achieve roadway condition results similar to the corrosion-inhibiting anti-icers. The performance of salt was similar to that of corrosion-inhibiting anti-icers in keeping roads bare and wet during snowy or icy winter conditions. The corrosion-inhibiting anti-icers proved to be consistently less corrosive to steel on motor vehicles than salt, but corrosion to sheet and cast aluminum on vehicles was mixed. In some cases, salt was more corrosive to aluminum. In others, salt was less corrosive to aluminum. Environmental impacts from the use of salt were similar to impacts from the use of corrosion-inhibiting anti-icers. In both cases, chlorides detected in roadside soils and water were far below levels of concern for the protection of the environment and public health. At the end of two years, field-testing data indicated that WSDOT's emphasis on corrosion-inhibiting anti-icers appears to be preferable when compared to an emphasis on using salt.
Update Dec. 24: Got off the horn with a spokesperson with WSDOT. The state uses "all available tools" to clear highways and freeways, including salt brine and rock salt. Working from memory, the state only began doing this sometime within the last couple years. The spokesperson manning the phones couldn't recall exactly when it occured either.
Due to the Christmas holiday and weekends, hopefully I'll have more to report on Monday or Tuesday.
But as for Seattle not using salt, it shouldn't come as any surprise because the city hasn't used rock salt for decades. And the reason had always been that locals don't want their cars to rust out.
Scream and holler but why do expect anything different?
The issue anyway is not the use of salt. But the fact that Seattle isn't plowing streets period. Focus on the big issue and don't let yourself get distracted by a salted red herring.
10 comment(s)
Cassie says:
Meh. Why aren't they using "corrosion-inhibited anti-icers" then? Why all this purposely-leave-a-snow-pack stuff?
You're quick to get outraged at the outrage, but please consider this protecting-the-Sound explanation did come from SDOT, it's not like there is some conspiracy theory a vast right wing group cooked up. Don't get paranoid on us, Don.
Posted On: Tuesday, Dec. 23 2008 @ 4:16PM
Don Ward says:
Holding public officials' feet to the fire (or snow in this case) is fine.
And Mayor Nickels and the response of the City to this snow storm should be questioned.
As mentioned repeatedly above.
But don't go chasing a red, salted herring here.
The roads have to be plowed first before any salt can be thrown down anyways.
Posted On: Tuesday, Dec. 23 2008 @ 4:45PM
Christina Wennerlind says:
The fact that "protecting Puget Sound" is the reason given for not using salt upsets me far more than the failure to salt the roads. Had they used the "it will rust your car out" excuse, I'm sure fewer people would be upset. It's the absolute stupidity of claiming that salt will contaminate SALTWATER that infuriates me. Besides, if I have to choose between the chance of a little rust, and my car being smashed to pieces because it slipped on icy roads, I'll take the rust any day.
Posted On: Tuesday, Dec. 23 2008 @ 6:27PM
Sara says:
I am so sorry Don that you feel that "It is absolutely flabbergasting that people can be given drivers licenses when they don't even know the basics of commuting in inclement weather." Are you offering driving lessons to the nearly 1000 drivers so far who got stuck and had to abandon their compact cars, taxis, shuttles, SUVs, and buses along the sides of roads and highways? Are you also offering lessons to those who slid backwards/forwards along icy hills like the two buses that smashed into I-5? Or to the many of us who are not from Seattle and were unprepared to live in an area known for its rain, not its snow and is thus much less navigable than places that do not stand still when white stuff falls from the sky? After you complete this task, perhaps you can chauffeur all those stuck at SEA-TAC as well because no one else seems to be able to. Thanks a bunch!
Posted On: Wednesday, Dec. 24 2008 @ 10:23AM
Don Ward says:
Number one lesson: Don't let yourself be a victim.
Posted On: Wednesday, Dec. 24 2008 @ 10:29AM
Jo from DC says:
euh?
when Don says: If the Seattle-Metro area routinely received two, three or ten feet of snow a year, then using salt might be a good alternative. But the region doesn't get that much white stuff."
precisely.
Since arctic blast is so unusual in the Seattle area, having a few grains of salt stuck in Don's car, every 12 years or so, is quite acceptable. What is NOT acceptable is having tourists/visitors stuck at the airport or new malls opening with only three cars in their parking lot during recessionary times, in order to save Don's car from a possible 'cancer'. What is NOT acceptable is having local taxi drivers playing highway robbery, like the one I happened to be in last Thursday night at SEA-TAC. He boasted that he had been getting $300 that afternoon (and even was offered $500) to take out of towners from SEA-TAC to DWTWN Seattle; refusing to take a passenger with luggage up the hill to Harbor View Hospital emergency room; boasting that he would be working 24h, and had already worked 12h straight.
After years spent in Colorado, Wisconsin, and other such winter locales, where salt is always used, I am happy to report that my 20-year-old Honda Accord is still cancer-free.
Posted On: Wednesday, Dec. 24 2008 @ 10:44AM
Jackson says:
"And after five or six years of driving in brine, your car rusts out from the fenders, doors and undercarriage."
Yes. After five or six years -- not after a couple of weeks of freak snowy weather. A little salt for a few days isn't going to kill your car. Classic Seattle fretting and over-thinking.
Posted On: Wednesday, Dec. 24 2008 @ 11:06AM
Juan Carion says:
I think if you clean your car after arriving at home the corrosion issue for salting the roads go away. I am a very experienced driver and even I'm not dumb enough to venture in the snow in seattle with all the hills. My insurance policy will cost me less because I'm not taking chances in the crazy snow packed streets. So for those of you with classic cars or cars that are worth over $30,000 who are concerned over a little rust, you can afford to get your car cleaned after driving in salted streets. the rest of us who have to buy used cars worth $1500 cause we can't afford anything else, we want the salt. clean our streets and keep all x\citizens safe.
Posted On: Thursday, Dec. 25 2008 @ 12:18AM
andrew says:
You Seattle liberal freak-a-zoids are beyond ignorant. Keep doing the same dumb things and keep getting the same dumb results. Salt and plow all the roads, spend the money on all the equiptment needed to make the roads safe the one or two times a year and thats all. But no, let's elect freaks like Nickels and Gregoire and all the other liberal idiots, so we can have discussions and meetings every year about salmon, gays, trees, and all the feel good stuff, while cars and buses are all piling up on the side of the road because of a few inches of snow. Liberalism is truely a mental disorder.
Posted On: Sunday, Dec. 28 2008 @ 2:11PM
Matt says:
I have to second and third a few comments here. I am pretty sure that your are failing in a 'dose makes teh poison' scenario. When the midwest and east salt roads, the weather is at or below freezing for weeks at a time, making it very difficult to wash your car without freezing up your locks etc. If we salt the roads here, we can wash our cars within a week almost every time.
The salt stays on the cars for weeks, and everytime you drive, you get pray of snow and slush into your wheel wells, allows the solution to re-form.
I am not a metallurgist and have done no research into the durations necessary to have a real effect, but a day or two of salt every year or two will not likely destroy your car. Plus, think of the cost benefit this way: If they don't salt, it keeps XX%(my guess would be 30-60) of people from going to work due to the fact that the roads are nearly impassible. If they do salt, it keeps all of the people (0.1% would be VERY generous to your cause here) who are very concerned about the long term rust health of their cars off the roads for a week, maybe two during a time of year that the 'good' cars are more likely to be kept off the road anyway. Even with a very conservative number of 10% of people staying home without salt and the equally conservative 0.1% staying off teh road because of salt, the salt effects would have to last for 100 days before the number of driving days lost due to a salted road (sorry, had to put the pun in) was equal. And this does not even add in the question of how many people may or may not have gone into Seattle to shop if the roads were in reasonable shape for the last few days before Christmas.
I really can see no reason to skip the salt that has any true benefit to the people of the area.
Posted On: Friday, Jan. 9 2009 @ 3:14PM